[MasterOfTaxation]

Hello. I decided to start school in my late thirties. Ended up with a bachelors in Accounting with very high grades. Got a Masters in Tax with high grades as well. Problem is, I have almost no practical experience in accounting outside of school. Most of my peers my age have significant bookkeeping or similar experience.

I have decent networking skills and was able to pick up internships at a big four firm, an industry job, and a local firm. But, I’ve never been offered a job in public accounting despite having a fantastic work ethic and generally getting along well with most people. I’m starting to think my age is a pretty obvious obstacle.

Any advice?

[MaLoTu]

It will be an obstacle, but not impossible. I think the biggest part of the pie is whether you fit the culture. In these past internships, did you feel out of place or like there was a barrier in this regard?

I am assuming that you have had jobs or a career in the past. If possible, I would apply to some smaller firms that do work that aligns with your professional background so that you can leverage off prior industry knowledge, if you are concerned about not having enough, career-wise, to offer.

Don't give up, you just have to find the right spot and I am sure that there is a firm out there that will appreciate all you have to offer.

[Anonymous]

Your age is a bit of an obstacle. Having similar issues trying to land a job at 44.

But my feeling is that if you did well with those internships, then I'd suspect that it's just a matter of finding the right fit. Once you get the foot in the door, then odds are good that you'll knock the socks off of some hiring manager.

[Anonymous]

I don't think it is an obstacle. In my MACC class, there was a veteran guy in his 50s, without accounting experience and, found a position as a staff accountant in a middle size company.

If you have an experience in a big 4 and IT department, you might choose IT auditing. There is a lot of room to explore in that area. Actually audit firms require IT experience to their new hires. Risk assessment and IT auditing is in great demand. I am pretty sure that you can find something related with IT and taxation.

Also, if you like tax, you might be familiar with laws and regulations. do you love the tax code? If you know the tax regulations and know how to explain them, auditors will love you.

Keep searching!

[MasterOfTaxation]

MaLoTu – I have spent the past few years honing my networking skills. I can usually walk into a room of people and work the room, make people laugh, and usually can put people at ease. I'm a very honest, genuine person and I've found that's one of the secrets to connecting with people anywhere. BUT, my experience at accounting firms did not match that. It was awkward. Like I reach out and try to connect with people and it just didn't work out. (And I'm not pushy or get weirdly personal. It's all professional.) The hierarchy at accounting firms is just strange if you're unfamiliar with it. Especially in tax. You don't have a boss per se. You just sort of float around working on clients and you get bombarded by criticism on everything. I'm used to feedback, but it's almost non-existent outside of review notes. I heard a single positive comment from one of the partners on one of my returns and that was it. But, I'm certain my performance was above average.

Thanks for the positive pat on the back. I'm a bit down, but will never give up the fight. I just think it's likely public accounting is not a good fit for me.

brianc2008 – Sorry to hear you're having the same issues. I've never felt so alienated professionally until these recent experiences. I think public accounting really is set up for a very rigid structural progression. Most of the leadership there is young, aside from the partners. My managers, seniors, and coworkers were all younger than me. Despite me being friendly and accommodating, I felt walls up every time I attempted to connect with coworkers. I'm definitely not taking on another internship. I wish you the best of luck.

betovich – I have significant education in tax research due to my degree. And yes, I enjoyed researching tax code. I don't, however, have any significant experience in IT and have no interest in audit. The sad thing is that I'm exceptionally analytical and could interpret and explain code in an approachable way. This whole experience has been frustrating but I guess I should be grateful. I know a lot of really great people my age who didn't even get offered internships. I also know a lot of people with slightly less than good grades but low social skills who are still struggling to get a job.

Like everything in life, you can take this stuff and beat yourself up over it or be humbled by it in a positive way. It's so easy to get carried away when you're someone like me who did not have the opportunity to go to school until later in life. I was shocked that I was so successful at it. I received some really prestigious awards, scholarships, memberships to honor societies, etc. and I end up going to a firm and can't get hired when a C student is full-time and doing fine. (But keep in mind she was beautiful and young. Most of the tax departments at the firms I've been at were almost exclusively filled with young, attractive females.)

I will take a breath, regroup, and put all of the residual anger into my preparation for the CPA exam. There has to be a place for someone with almost perfect grades, two accounting degrees, and a CPA license somewhere. Even if I'm not a 25 year old, leggy blond…

[Anonymous]

Curious, why would you want to work in public accounting after 40 as staff/senior level associate?

Public accounting is like boot camp for CFO/Director training. Military limit for enlistment is 35-40.

It might be your best interest to seek employment with a smaller firm, then once you learn the financials of one of your clients, then you could be hired there as an internal accountant. The bigger firm openings are typically reserved for recent grads since they do a high level of university recruitment.

[Missy]

I got a big 4 offer when I was 44 (not in audit or tax, but in a specialized field that I had experience in). I turned it down because it would have been too big a cut in pay and they wanted me out of state Monday-Thursday indefinately. But the bigger point is big 4 does hire 40-somethings, maybe in a much smaller proportion than 20 somethings. Its harder for sure but with determination can happen.

Licensed Massachusetts Non Reporting CPA since 2012
Finance/Admin/HR Manager

[MasterOfTaxation]

MaLoTu – I have spent the past few years honing my networking skills. I can usually walk into a room of people and work the room, make people laugh, and usually can put people at ease. I'm a very honest, genuine person and I've found that's one of the secrets to connecting with people anywhere. BUT, my experience at accounting firms did not match that. It was awkward. Like I reach out and try to connect with people and it just didn't work out. (And I'm not pushy or get weirdly personal. It's all professional.) The hierarchy at accounting firms is just strange if you're unfamiliar with it. Especially in tax. You don't have a boss per se. You just sort of float around working on clients and you get bombarded by criticism on everything. I'm used to feedback, but it's almost non-existent outside of review notes. I heard a single positive comment from one of the partners on one of my returns and that was it. But, I'm certain my performance was above average.

Thanks for the positive pat on the back. I'm a bit down, but will never give up the fight. I just think it's likely public accounting is not a good fit for me.

brianc2008 – Sorry to hear you're having the same issues. I've never felt so alienated professionally until these recent experiences. I think public accounting really is set up for a very rigid structural progression with the expectation that new hires will be in their twenties. Most of the leadership there is young, aside from the partners. My managers, seniors, and coworkers were all younger than me. Despite me being friendly and accommodating, I felt walls up every time I attempted to connect with coworkers. I'm definitely not taking on another internship. I wish you the best of luck.

betovich – I have significant education in tax research due to my degree. And yes, I enjoyed researching tax code. I don't, however, have any significant experience in IT and have no interest in audit. The sad thing is that I'm exceptionally analytical and could interpret and explain code in an approachable way. Surprisingly though, none of this is relevant to a new hire. Most of your job is comparative data analysis. And, an even larger part of your job is trying to figure out the nuances of whatever software program you’re using to process returns.
This whole experience has been frustrating but I guess I should be grateful. I know a lot of really great people my age who didn't even get offered internships. I also know a lot of people with slightly less than good grades but low social skills who are still struggling to get a job.
Like everything in life, you can take this stuff and beat yourself up over it or be humbled by it in a positive way. It's so easy to get carried away when you're someone like me who did not have the opportunity to go to school until later in life. I was shocked that I was so successful at it. I received some really prestigious awards, scholarships, memberships to honor societies, etc. and I end up going to a firm and can't get hired next to a C student is full-time and doing fine. (But keep in mind she was beautiful and young. Most of the tax departments at the firms I've been at were almost exclusively filled with young, attractive females.)

I will take a breath, regroup, and put all of the residual anger into my preparation for the CPA exam. There has to be a place for someone with almost perfect grades, two accounting degrees, and a CPA license somewhere. Even if I'm not a 25 year old, leggy blond…

BrickellCPA – I’m not sure. I got wrapped up in Beta Alpha Psi and recruitment on campus while getting my undergrad. I did really well on all my interviews and had offers for internships from multiple firms (big four, large local, medium local, etc.) I originally started school just to open some doors in business for me. I completely switched careers in my thirties and started an office manager job but was frustrated at the limitations in pay and advancement.
Went to school originally thinking I would just do some small facet of internal accounting like AP, payroll, etc. Once I excelled in school, I started rethinking all that. Truly had no idea what to expect from public but assumed that someone with a tax focus would be best suited in public accounting. My dilemma stemmed from the fact that all my similarly aged friends pursuing their degrees had accounting experience and were mainly just advancing their current job.
I’ve actually started considering trying out the VA or another government job since I’m a Veteran.

Mla11692 – I wasn’t specifically referring to big four when I mentioned public accounting. I got a big four internship, but of all the people I knew who go actually hired to work for big four none were my age. The oldest was around 34 – this includes EY, PwC, KPMG, and Deloitte. I live in a relatively small market though. It seems like they took me on but never had any intention on hiring me. Same for the smaller public accounting firm that gave me an internship during busy season. I busted my ass in both and know I was an asset.

[Anonymous]

Well. It is up to you. If you really want to go into tax, you have the EA and the CPA option. Go to the non 4 big and learn how to use People soft and prosystems and master these software. I work in tax and i taught depreciation to the junior auditors. My boss actually wanted to give me more clients to solve tax issues for clients and real state companies. There is a lot of work only in that area. It was a great experience but then i did an internship in Corporate Finance and my tax understanding helped me a lot to understand DTA and DTL. You actually see that in the 10Ks. What about financial planning to take advantage of the tax deductions? if you know that, there are $$$ and tons of work.

[MasterOfTaxation]

betovich – I will pass the CPA exam regardless of which direction I go in. I have a bachelors in accounting and masters in tax. I already did an internship at a big four firm and another at a smaller local firm. The point of my post was that I've never been offered a public accounting job and I'm starting to think it's time to look outside of public accounting. It sounds like all of your advice involves public accounting. Even if I did convince myself to try the public route again, no chance I will pursue big four. Not a chance in hell.

[Anthony]

How long have you been out of school? With an internship with a B4 and other places you shouldn't have trouble getting snatched up by small firms/regional. Then again, really depends on where you live. If you live out of no where, it's going to be tough.

[Kodiak]

I'm an older student (45), starting off with career now that the kids are leaving home. My experience going through recruiting last fall – big 4 got to second round, flown up and did the weekend thing but did not get an offer. Could it have been age? I don't think so. Maybe a small part. I just didn't ‘fit' with them. And the competition for the few jobs was fierce.

I interviewed with a top ten firm and went through a lot of hoops as I was interviewing for a location in a much different region. After a few phone interviews was flown to meet with much of the office partners and managers kind of out of cycle with the regular rounds and hit it off. I was offered a job, which I accepted. Prior to that meeting I wasn't quite sure what people meant when they said ‘fit' because I get along with everyone. But there was a much different feel with the other firm than with the big 4 firm.

My experience has been a part time industry job in my last year of college that was a long term internship where I got to do a bit of everything. Nothing major though.

I think it just comes down to opportunity. Openings at the right time in the right place plus hitting it off with those in charge of hiring. I really liked the people I met while interviewing for my firm and I'm excited to start (my start date is this fall).

I really wanted public accounting, specifically audit. So I pursued it pretty hard core – if public is what appeals to you, just keep looking. If you were able to go for different locations that might even help.

Good luck!

[MasterOfTaxation]

Kodiak – Thanks for your feedback. Ironically, I always get along really well with the audit people. I think my fit problem has more to do with not fitting with tax people than anything. But I have no interest in audit as a career.

Oddly, my experiences were much different from yours. I didn't just interview with a couple of firms in my area – I was active in Beta Alpha Psi and interviewed with pretty much all of the firms that are involved with recruiting. I spent years doing this and know people at almost all the local firms around here. And, I got internship offers from just about all of them. (I interview really well.)

The thing that concerns me is that the culture at all of these firms is a youth culture. There were no staff, managers, or senior level people my age. This is particularly true of people my age who have no experience. It's like despite me being completely honest about my lack of experience, I'm always expected to know more and pick up things quicker than the younger people. I listened to how the other staff were talked to and it was much different from what was said to me. And I know for certain that I was more efficient than some of the younger people there.

I feel like this was just a learning experience for me. I only went the public accounting route because I got wrapped up in recruiting and campus organizations that push public accounting. I knew nothing about public when I started school. I actually started only intending to do some form of internal accounting. I really didn't even intend on getting a CPA when I started. I had always wanted to get a degree and became interested in business/accounting in my thirties. Then I made excellent grades and learned I needed 150 hours just to sit for the exam. Then some inspirational teachers motivated me to get a masters. I made excellent grades again while having positive experiences with recruiting. I just sort of ran with it.

But I've worked through two busy seasons now and it hasn't been positive. I busted my ass. I am no slouch. I took initiative, asked for and responded to feedback, was accommodating, helpful, friendly, and didn't respond to personal insults, etc. I showed up every day and hustled and was 100% billable the entire time. I just really put everything into this twice now and not a damn thing came out of it. It's discouraging.

I'm not the kind of person who lacks self-awareness. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I could do differently and I'm certain I gave this my all and my performance was exceptional. It truly was a social failure over a performance failure. I am friendly as can be and can work a room of strangers. But the entire staff in both firms I interned at was young people (mostly young females). Success at these firms is wholly dependent on connecting with mentors and peers who can help you succeed. That has not happened to me.

I'm going to regroup after passing this damn exam. I am fortunate in that I'm not solely driven by money like so many people who pursue this path. I'm also open to many different careers that involve some form of accounting. I'm hoping time will give me some insight.

Take care and good luck.

[12tang]

I'm in my early thirties as well and I too felt age was a factor. I have never received an offer to work public. Now that I think about it further I don't think age was a big enough factor, it was more a “fit” issue. No one likes to hear that so it's kind of hard to believe, but it's probably true. I think I had the possibility to fit in but I botched the interview by trying to look too perfect. I really feel if I was able to connect with my interviewers by being “me”, I would have had the job. It's all about whether or not they want to sit in the same room as you for 12+ hours a day and unfortunately they decide this in the first few minutes of meeting you.

I have a lot of reservations about public accounting. It just feels to cliquey and you know what, it absolutely is. Anyone that tells you otherwise is bs-ing you. I don't like how colleges push public, but it makes sense why. Much like everything in this country, follow the paper trail and that trail my friend, is the money trail. Money controls everything!

Take my advice with a grain of salt as I have never worked public but I feel that smaller firms are more willing to hire older candidates. The turnover is probably lower at smaller firms so retention is more important and they're probably more likely to retain someone who is older and more mature, versus a younger cat.

CPA rules all and getting that will help you stand out. Get it, continue the search and something is bound to come your way.

I went private industry and I have it pretty good, but don't like the fact that I'm not as marketable as someone who has done public. I guess with anything in life, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The grass isn't always greener on the other side either.

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