[KidCPA]

Hi everyone — first time poster, long time fan of the site. A little about me — I am a JD who has passed the bar and, recently (August last part), the CPA exam. After passing the bar, I decided to sit for the CPA exam (long time goal but certainly challenging because I only took a handful of accounting courses — was liberal arts major). That said, I have a lot of education but little experience (worked at a bank in non-accounting compliance role after law school, and did several legal internship unrelated to accounting).

After I passed the last exam, I have been trying really hard to break into the B4 (tax). Very frustrating process — my experience has shown they do most of their recruiting on campus and a year in advance. I have applied online, networked (tried accounting society events — lots of business cards, no replies back to my follow up emails), and reached out to recruiters. Basically told the window for this season has passed. I was, however, able to get an interview at one of the firms but got dinged — not sure if I had a bad interview, they feared I would leave for law (not the case b/c legal market horrible and no job stability), or they had groomed other candidates through the internship process. Whatever the case, was a bitter pill to swallow.

That said, before I throw in the towel on B4 (I’m not opposed to working smaller firms; I just think B4 pays the most and I have massive student loans), I am not sure what to do? I have nothing holding me down so I can move wherever; I just don’t know how to “get my foot in the door,” as it were. Have come to the conclusion (and not sure how to do this absent connections), that I need to get my resume in front of a partner willing to take a chance on a non-traditional candidate.

What would you guys do if you are me? Am I doing something wrong?

[uglyduckie]

Congratulations on passing both the bar and the CPA exams! I am also an attorney, trying to get my CPA, and I worked at Deloitte in tax for almost 5 years. I am thinking the hiring process may be different for other Big 4 firms and also may vary by office, but this is what I observed:

-the firm normally hires people right out of school
-in evaluating candidates, I felt that the firm weighs GPA in accounting courses heavily, but I can't confirm
-people who are offered full time positions normally (but certainly not always) are from their internship program, but not every intern receives an offer
-tax internship programs for most of the different tax groups normally coincided with tax busy season (Feb-April, internship application process around Oct of the previous year, if I remember correctly, and June-Sept/Oct, not sure when that process is)
-people who are hired outside of the internship program normally have prior work experience doing the exact same work, but the firm will start you at the lowest level
-some of the tax groups such as International Tax, Multistate, and Controversy, do hire a lot of attorneys that do not have accounting degrees, while some other groups, like personal compliance, business compliance, hire more accounting majors and don't care as much if you have law degree
-the specialized tax groups that hire attorneys with no accounting degree are normally only in big cities like San Francisco, New York, LA, Chicago, etc.
-the offices in smaller cities may only have one general tax practice that does a little of everything, so you may still be valuable to those smaller offices because you should be better able to do the work that are heavy in research, writing, etc
-I heard that attorneys should receive $10,000 more in starting pay compared to that of 4 year degree new hires, but I am pretty sure my pay increase was not 10,000 compared to others who started with me, and the pay evens out after the first couple of years anyway.
-I think that national recruiters filter out the initial applicants, then the office interviews those on the short list

My recommendations:
-apply for the positions in the specialty tax groups that hire attorneys, be flexible with moving to certain cities
-ask someone working for the firm to make an internal recommendation (location and position do not matter). Employees can receive generous bonuses for successful referrals.
-don't apply for positions requiring experience if you have none because it will get automatically rejected, apply for the lowest level.
-really work on the “why a CPA firm” answer because like you noticed it is a big concern when you can go to a private law firm and make more than double in pay with the same amount of hours. You should show a passion for the accounting field, not just that the legal market is unstable.

Hope this helps! Good luck!

REG - 72, retake 2/11/2017
AUD - 7/30/2016
FAR - 10/08/2016
BEC - 12/10/2016

[KidCPA]

Thanks for the advice Duckie — I really appreciate the insightful response! Nice to meet another person out there with a similar background to me! Re. your comments/questions: (1) definitely open to anywhere if it gives me the opportunity to work B4 in tax; and (2) I tried networking through people who work there in hopes of the referral bonus — at least at the firm I had the interview (where only reason I got interview b/c had CV passed along by friend of a friend), they didn't offer such bonus b/c I was coming on as an Associate through “on campus” recruiting (even though I never was on campus!).

I'm sure each firm and location is unique, but I was really surprised how hard it was to even get my resume in front of a human being here. As I mentioned, they hire Associate positions through on campus recruiting roughly a year in advance. I even tried attending the career fair through my undergrad as a permitted alumnus but B4 has a separate career event with the accounting department that alumni are not invited to — so, de facto, you can't really even speak to anyone there. And they don't list the Associate positions online to apply!

Just frustrated because I worked really hard and thought, naively, the JD/CPA would get my hand stamped to enter the forbidden city (Seinfeld reference) that is the B4. I'm sure as you know, legal market isn't the greatest for young attorneys. When I graduated law school (in the top 25% of a top 60-70 school), maybe top 5% of class got big law jobs making >$100k coming out; the remaining ones lucky enough to get associate attorney positions start at 40-60k. So for me, at least, B4 was my shot to exit the rat race that is law and enter a career with stability and growth.

[KidCPA]

Not saying life in public accounting is some “day at the beach” compared to law and you aren't going to be working long hours etc. etc.

[uglyduckie]

I feel like the private accounting and law firms are similar in that their process is very closed to outsiders, and there's an attitude that “if you know, you know.”

Are you set on going to a CPA firm? Have you looked into government jobs, such as your state's attorney general's office? Some student loans (maybe just federal?) have programs where if you work for certain organizations, including the government, for a certain amount of years, they will waive your remaining student loan balance under certain repayment plans.

I know other attorneys who were in the Big 4 went on to find jobs in private companies (40 hour/week jobs with just as much if not more pay than big 4). With your CPA and law licenses you could go into a company in either their accounting or legal department, and I would think having the other license would boost your chances.

REG - 72, retake 2/11/2017
AUD - 7/30/2016
FAR - 10/08/2016
BEC - 12/10/2016

[uglyduckie]

My opinion is that CPAs, at least those in tax, definitely work longer hours than attorneys but are paid less 🙁

REG - 72, retake 2/11/2017
AUD - 7/30/2016
FAR - 10/08/2016
BEC - 12/10/2016

[C / X]

Big 4 is more for prestige and later bigger, better opportunities; I wouldn't say it pays the best. I think Midtier firms are comparable so maybe look at some of those.

While you have the necessary “paper qualifications” I know only about one or two people that got hired in BIG 4 after graduation and usually they have worked for a little bit somewhere else in the accounting world.

The best way to get in right now is probably knowing somebody that would recommend you, so I recommend networking.

I don't know if someone with a law degree would fit in when they would be low on the totem pole in BIG 4, which is where you would start at so you might want to do something about any reservations they have with that…Otherwise maybe try for something else and transfer later.

[KidCPA]

Duckie — right now, set on accounting; been down the “young lawyer” road and investigated different areas — at least where I am, it's not worth the headache of long hours and low pay (for the available jobs) just to call yourself an attorney. That's why I sat for the CPA exam — to get out of this mess. Funny, though, every time I talk to a tax accounting person I feel like they have a secret desire to go to law school — I try warning them not to go unless full ride or top law school.

Christina — thanks for responding. Definitely hear you on the “low man on the totem pool” concern — I am actually cool with the idea of starting at the bottom and paying your dues. I don't know how much the stench of a “failed lawyer” carries over into the interview; but I can definitely see how they might have concerns with someone with my background having an ego (another reason don't go to law school! — surrounded by people who think they are geniuses!).

[hasy]

This is just from my interaction with, surprisingly, DT associates. I went to Casino night before and I spoke to a tax associate. He had a law degree as well, but he actually started at a nat'l firm and moved his way up to the B4. From what I know, the B4 has a very specific mold of what they're looking for. If you're NOT in that mold, they won't consider you. So I would reach out to other different firms, there's NO WAY right to land a job at B4. But I think in your case, it would benefit you to start somewhere else.

THIS IS NOT TO SAY TO AIM LOWER, just AIM smarter.

Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved - Helen Keller

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BEC 80 (10/23/15)
FAR 72 (4/2/15); 83 (7/11/16)
REG 52 (4/28/15)
AUD (9/9/16)

Roger + NINJA MCQ + WTB

[C / X]

@KidCPA. Well don't be to negative about your law degree (esp in an interview), it is actually really impressive, I hear the bar is really hard. I'm sure you could have found something….eventually. But it's true that the job market for lawyers is waaay over saturated.

Honestly I think public accountants work as long as hours (well for half the year) as lawyers but are def not paid as much. For Big 4 I notice the ones that go to EY/KPMG are very friendly and *seem* easy-going while the ones at PWC/Deloitte are more polished and polite.

I would think PWC/Deloitte might fit someone with a law degree better. They hire Analysts/IT consultants too, and I bet they make more of the big moolah if you want to try and switch directions again. It's also easier to get something when it's in a bigger city..don't know where you're located but relocating might help (and once you're in the door you can relocate again later).

[DZagt]

This is a great topic. Im actually very concerned about this as well, Ive been working at a non profit for 4 years doing FP&A and Im very concerned about my prospects going public once I finish testing….My concern is obviously my lack of public accounting experience.

[Author]

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